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| Welcome everybody to The Illusion of Consensus podcast.
|0:00
I am Professor Jay Bhattacharya and today I'm delighted to have here with me my friend Mattias Desmet.
 
Welcome everybody to The Illusion of Consensus podcast.
 
0:03
 
I am Professor Jay Bhattacharya and today I'm delighted to have here with me my friend Mattias Desmet.
 
0:09
 
Mattias, welcome to the show.
Mattias, welcome to the show.
It's been difficult to get us together but I'm so glad we finally managed to do it.
 
Likewise, Jay.
0:11
 
It's been difficult to get us together but I'm so glad we finally managed to do it.
 
0:16
 
I'm happy to be here and thank you for having me on.
I'm happy to be here and thank you for having me on.
So, Mattias is most famous for a book that he wrote during the pandemic called The Psychology of Totalitarianism.
 
We're going to talk mostly about the themes that he talked about in that book, but everyone should know that Mattias is a professor at the University of Ghent in Belgium.
0:19
and in in in psychology in clinical psychology a practicing psychotherapist but also Mattias you have a you have a background in statistics yes yes i also have a master degree in statistics and let's say the first eight years of my academic training of my academic of my work as a researcher i was working most of the time as a statistician doing research into
 
problems with academic research actually so when i made my phd i started in 2003 i think and two years later the replication crisis started a crisis which showed that as john ionitis describes in his wonderful paper why most published research findings are false
So, Mattias is most famous for a book that he wrote during the pandemic called The Psychology of Totalitarianism.
A crisis that showed that huge percentages of the published academic research actually
 
0:28
 
We're going to talk mostly about the themes that he talked about in that book, but everyone should know that Mattias is a professor at the University of Ghent in Belgium.
 
0:40
 
and in in in psychology in clinical psychology a practicing psychotherapist but also Mattias you have a you have a background in statistics yes yes i also have a master degree in statistics and let's say the first eight years of my academic training of my academic of my work as a researcher i was working most of the time as a statistician doing research into
 
1:09
 
problems with academic research actually so when i made my phd i started in 2003 i think and two years later the replication crisis started a crisis which showed that as john ionitis describes in his wonderful paper why most published research findings are false
 
1:33
 
A crisis that showed that huge percentages of the published academic research actually
 
1:42
 
leads to wrong conclusions.
leads to wrong conclusions.
It's interesting because John is my colleague here at Stanford and of course he's famous for many many things but that launching of the replication crisis was maybe the most impactful thing that he ever did.
 
What it did in many ways is it punctured the illusion that there was
1:45
A lot of academic work, a lot of scientific work really was aiming at getting at the truth.
 
In fact, what it mainly seemed to be is just a way to climb the greasy pole of academic politics because you have to publish or perish.
It's interesting because John is my colleague here at Stanford and of course he's famous for many many things but that launching of the replication crisis was maybe the most impactful thing that he ever did.
And so a lot of the work that was published in psychology, in empirical economics and in a whole bunch of fields turned out not to be replicable.
 
up to 85% in the medical world in medicine too one of John's papers and that's extremely interesting I think because but you see that like scientific discourse initially let's say back in the beginning of the 17th century
2:01
 
What it did in many ways is it punctured the illusion that there was
 
2:08
 
A lot of academic work, a lot of scientific work really was aiming at getting at the truth.
 
2:14
 
In fact, what it mainly seemed to be is just a way to climb the greasy pole of academic politics because you have to publish or perish.
 
2:23
 
And so a lot of the work that was published in psychology, in empirical economics and in a whole bunch of fields turned out not to be replicable.
 
2:34
 
up to 85% in the medical world in medicine too one of John's papers and that's extremely interesting I think because but you see that like scientific discourse initially let's say back in the beginning of the 17th century
 
2:51
 
I believe was a fine example of truth speech.
I believe was a fine example of truth speech.
It was a new discourse that emerged and that offered an alternative for the very dogmatic religious discourse at the moment in Europe.
 
but slowly as scientific discourse became the dominant discourse in society it lost its qualities of truthfulness and truth speech and in the end it just became a manipulative discourse in many respects I think and that's a problem we are facing now and that's something that is very typical
2:55
For every discourse that in the beginning was a sincere discourse of a minority and that became the dominant discourse, while becoming dominant, while becoming mainstream, a discourse loses its qualities of truthfulness.
 
It was a new discourse that emerged and that offered an alternative for the very dogmatic religious discourse at the moment in Europe.
 
3:11
 
but slowly as scientific discourse became the dominant discourse in society it lost its qualities of truthfulness and truth speech and in the end it just became a manipulative discourse in many respects I think and that's a problem we are facing now and that's something that is very typical
 
3:37
 
For every discourse that in the beginning was a sincere discourse of a minority and that became the dominant discourse, while becoming dominant, while becoming mainstream, a discourse loses its qualities of truthfulness.
 
3:54
 
It stops being a kind of truth speech.
It stops being a kind of truth speech.
From a psychological point of view, I think that this is a very interesting phenomenon.
 
I mean, the idea is that science, when it is an outside phenomenon, critiquing, seeking the truth, even if it is uncomfortable to people in power, is a very powerful thing.
3:57
 
From a psychological point of view, I think that this is a very interesting phenomenon.
 
4:02
 
I mean, the idea is that science, when it is an outside phenomenon, critiquing, seeking the truth, even if it is uncomfortable to people in power, is a very powerful thing.
 
4:16
 
In fact, I think in your book, you called it soul-expanding.
In fact, I think in your book, you called it soul-expanding.
4:20
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Absolutely.
 
And the way that you wrote about this, you write about it as this tool used by the powerful to control, to essentially, it's created a situation where people become disconnected from this.
4:45
 
And the way that you wrote about this, you write about it as this tool used by the powerful to control, to essentially, it's created a situation where people become disconnected from this.
 
5:09
 
They become enthralled to this ideology.
They become enthralled to this ideology.
Follow the science, trust the science as if it were itself a religious system rather than a humble set of tools trying to say, can I tell the difference between true and false?
 
Hi everyone, a quick word from our first and exciting new sponsor, Alchemy Elements.
5:13
We've been shopping around trying to find the best sponsors that align with our mission and our values and what we stand for and we've come across Alchemy Elements which I'm very excited to bring to you guys which is a synergistic herbal supplement.
 
Follow the science, trust the science as if it were itself a religious system rather than a humble set of tools trying to say, can I tell the difference between true and false?
 
5:27
 
Hi everyone, a quick word from our first and exciting new sponsor, Alchemy Elements.
 
5:33
 
We've been shopping around trying to find the best sponsors that align with our mission and our values and what we stand for and we've come across Alchemy Elements which I'm very excited to bring to you guys which is a synergistic herbal supplement.
 
5:47
 
It's a mix of several adaptogenic
It's a mix of several adaptogenic
Plant Compounds.
 
For those of you who don't know, adaptogens, you might have heard on Andrew Huberman's podcast, are plant medicines that help the body adapt to stress, essentially.
5:52
And so there's a number of adaptogens in here, including cordyceps mushrooms, reishi mushrooms, astralagus, shiljak, polygala, lion's mane mushrooms, and other compounds as well.
 
and you just take a tablespoon of this you put it in your morning coffee or your smoothie or a protein shake and you're good to go I've been doing this for about a week and as it suggests some of the short-term effects of increased focus increased concentration more energy I've already been feeling some of that look forward to taking it more in the long term and reporting back as we do more of these ads
For those of you who don't know, adaptogens, you might have heard on Andrew Huberman's podcast, are plant medicines that help the body adapt to stress, essentially.
We've been very careful and selective in what to sponsor on our program and this is something that I can totally get behind and as long as you keep hearing ads about this particular product, Alchemy Elements, you can be assured that this is something that I stand behind and can personally vouch for and recommend individuals try.
 
6:03
 
And so there's a number of adaptogens in here, including cordyceps mushrooms, reishi mushrooms, astralagus, shiljak, polygala, lion's mane mushrooms, and other compounds as well.
 
6:15
 
and you just take a tablespoon of this you put it in your morning coffee or your smoothie or a protein shake and you're good to go I've been doing this for about a week and as it suggests some of the short-term effects of increased focus increased concentration more energy I've already been feeling some of that look forward to taking it more in the long term and reporting back as we do more of these ads
 
6:39
 
We've been very careful and selective in what to sponsor on our program and this is something that I can totally get behind and as long as you keep hearing ads about this particular product, Alchemy Elements, you can be assured that this is something that I stand behind and can personally vouch for and recommend individuals try.
 
6:59
 
for The Illusion of Consensus with Mattias Desmet
for The Illusion of Consensus with Mattias Desmet
7:19
Subtitles by the Amara.org community
Subtitles by the Amara.org community
7:43
Mattias Desmet, Rav Arora
Mattias Desmet, Rav Arora
When it's the discourse of a minority, it cannot be used in an instrumental way.
 
But as a discourse becomes more dominant, it's typically used to be successful, to sell your products, to build a career and so on.
8:13
 
When it's the discourse of a minority, it cannot be used in an instrumental way.
 
8:20
 
But as a discourse becomes more dominant, it's typically used to be successful, to sell your products, to build a career and so on.
 
8:34
 
So when a discourse becomes dominant,
So when a discourse becomes dominant,
It's an excellent instrument to become successful in society and to become rich, to become famous, to become successful and so on.
 
8:37
 
It's an excellent instrument to become successful in society and to become rich, to become famous, to become successful and so on.
 
8:49
 
And that's how this discourse gets perverted.
And that's how this discourse gets perverted.
And that's also what happened with science, I'm afraid, throughout the last two centuries.
 
It draws people who are less interested in using the tools for soul-expanding purposes to learn how the world works, even if it contradicts the ideas of how I now think how the world works, versus people who want to use it as a way to gain
8:51
 
And that's also what happened with science, I'm afraid, throughout the last two centuries.
 
8:58
 
It draws people who are less interested in using the tools for soul-expanding purposes to learn how the world works, even if it contradicts the ideas of how I now think how the world works, versus people who want to use it as a way to gain
 
9:15
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
9:35
You will attract a completely different type of human being.
You will attract a completely different type of human being.
Scientific discourse attracts a completely different type of human being when it's a discourse of a minority compared to the discourse of a mainstream discourse.
 
9:59
 
Scientific discourse attracts a completely different type of human being when it's a discourse of a minority compared to the discourse of a mainstream discourse.
 
10:09
 
That's a completely different thing.
That's a completely different thing.
10:10
And that's exactly the entire problem.
And that's exactly the entire problem.
10:13
In the beginning, science was not ideological at all.
In the beginning, science was not ideological at all.
10:16
Science was made to challenge ideologies and ideas.
Science was made to challenge ideologies and ideas.
10:20
And after a while, it became in itself a dominant ideology.
And after a while, it became in itself a dominant ideology.
10:25
And that's when the problems start, of course.
And that's when the problems start, of course.
10:30
It's striking that you start your book this way.
It's striking that you start your book this way.
10:32
I wasn't expecting that.
I wasn't expecting that.
10:34
I was expecting a more straightforward psychological analysis.
I was expecting a more straightforward psychological analysis.
But you start with this corruption of science as the heart of the problem.
 
Now tell me, you move from that to this idea of the alienation of people from each other, from the activities that they do, and in fact it's just this science, this ideology that makes it possible to have this sort of alienated life.
10:39
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
 
Many people believe it is the scientific view of men in the world, which is not true.
But you start with this corruption of science as the heart of the problem.
Most major scientists are not rationalists and they are also not believing that the universe is a machine, not at all.
 
But in a strange way, we became convinced that this rationalist, mechanist ideology is the scientific view of men in the world.
10:47
And as this view of men in the world became dominant throughout the last few centuries, we could observe a very strange phenomenon in society.
 
and which Hegel, the famous German philosopher Hegel, coined the term atomization for.
Now tell me, you move from that to this idea of the alienation of people from each other, from the activities that they do, and in fact it's just this science, this ideology that makes it possible to have this sort of alienated life.
 
11:09
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
 
11:25
 
Many people believe it is the scientific view of men in the world, which is not true.
 
11:29
 
Most major scientists are not rationalists and they are also not believing that the universe is a machine, not at all.
 
11:37
 
But in a strange way, we became convinced that this rationalist, mechanist ideology is the scientific view of men in the world.
 
11:44
 
And as this view of men in the world became dominant throughout the last few centuries, we could observe a very strange phenomenon in society.
 
11:53
 
and which Hegel, the famous German philosopher Hegel, coined the term atomization for.
 
12:01
 
He said our society is atomizing, meaning that
He said our society is atomizing, meaning that
The social bond between people slowly deteriorated and more and more people throughout the last few centuries reported to feel lonely and disconnected and just before the corona crisis the number of lonely people really peaked in between 40 and 60 percent of the people worldwide reported not to have one meaningful relationship and only connect to other people
 
12:06
 
The social bond between people slowly deteriorated and more and more people throughout the last few centuries reported to feel lonely and disconnected and just before the corona crisis the number of lonely people really peaked in between 40 and 60 percent of the people worldwide reported not to have one meaningful relationship and only connect to other people
 
12:34
 
in a technological way, which was huge and very interesting.
in a technological way, which was huge and very interesting.
I think it was a Gallup World poll, I'm not sure, but I mentioned it in my book, which showed that the number of lonely people was very highly correlated to the level of industrialization and technology use.
 
12:39
 
I think it was a Gallup World poll, I'm not sure, but I mentioned it in my book, which showed that the number of lonely people was very highly correlated to the level of industrialization and technology use.
 
12:52
 
And that, for me, was one of the major questions I asked myself.
And that, for me, was one of the major questions I asked myself.
12:56
Why did this rationalist, mechanist-fueled man in the world lead
Why did this rationalist, mechanist-fueled man in the world lead
to more and more loneliness and you can explain it in several ways the most profound way is situated merely at the psychological level like when we start to believe that the essence of life around us can be grasped in the categories of our rational thinking we inevitably
 
Isolate and alienate ourselves from the core of life because the core of life, the essence of life, can never be grasped in a rational way.
13:02
 
to more and more loneliness and you can explain it in several ways the most profound way is situated merely at the psychological level like when we start to believe that the essence of life around us can be grasped in the categories of our rational thinking we inevitably
 
13:30
 
Isolate and alienate ourselves from the core of life because the core of life, the essence of life, can never be grasped in a rational way.
 
13:38
 
That's what someone like the famous physicist Niels Bohr said.
That's what someone like the famous physicist Niels Bohr said.
When it comes to atoms, he said, language can only be used as poetry.
 
And the entire complex dynamical systems theory is showing us exactly this.
13:43
 
When it comes to atoms, he said, language can only be used as poetry.
 
13:49
 
And the entire complex dynamical systems theory is showing us exactly this.
 
13:57
 
Every complex dynamical system
Every complex dynamical system
which are most phenomena in nature behaves literally like an irrational number in mathematics which means that it is intrinsically unpredictable this phenomenon and science on the one hand is an impressive accumulation of rational knowledge but equally well it is a mental discipline which showed us that the essence of life
 
13:59
 
which are most phenomena in nature behaves literally like an irrational number in mathematics which means that it is intrinsically unpredictable this phenomenon and science on the one hand is an impressive accumulation of rational knowledge but equally well it is a mental discipline which showed us that the essence of life
 
14:29
 
can never be grasped in a rational way.
can never be grasped in a rational way.
I mean that's such an important point and the Enlightenment thinkers understood this.
 
I remember in college I read Blaise Pascal's Pensée, a very famous actually scientist of the Enlightenment era and he was writing this book to justify his religious faith.
14:32
 
I mean that's such an important point and the Enlightenment thinkers understood this.
 
14:38
 
I remember in college I read Blaise Pascal's Pensée, a very famous actually scientist of the Enlightenment era and he was writing this book to justify his religious faith.
 
14:54
 
And it was a striking contrast.
And it was a striking contrast.
The professor that assigned it, I think he meant to show this contrast, that there was a limit to how soul-fulfilling our development of reason can be.
 
In fact, we're more than just head, we're also heart, and our being is tied up in the two of them.
14:55
and to say only the head matters is a mistake it's a scientific mistake as well as a human mistake and you can also see it actually you know Einstein also said in the introduction of a book of Max Planck this other famous physicist of the 20th century he said many people think
 
that science is born from a supreme capacity for rational thinking, but he said that's not true.
The professor that assigned it, I think he meant to show this contrast, that there was a limit to how soul-fulfilling our development of reason can be.
I believe science originates from a supreme capacity for Einfühlung, he said, which is a German term for empathic resonating.
 
15:07
 
In fact, we're more than just head, we're also heart, and our being is tied up in the two of them.
 
15:17
 
and to say only the head matters is a mistake it's a scientific mistake as well as a human mistake and you can also see it actually you know Einstein also said in the introduction of a book of Max Planck this other famous physicist of the 20th century he said many people think
 
15:40
 
that science is born from a supreme capacity for rational thinking, but he said that's not true.
 
15:47
 
I believe science originates from a supreme capacity for Einfühlung, he said, which is a German term for empathic resonating.
 
16:00
 
You have to be capable
You have to be capable
of resonating with the phenomenon you are interested in, in an empathic way, with your heart.
 
In order to discover a phenomenon in this way, you have to have the courage not to know, to stop thinking.
16:02
A scientist, a real scientist, is someone who has the capacity to stop thinking and who has the courage to admit that he doesn't know.
 
of resonating with the phenomenon you are interested in, in an empathic way, with your heart.
 
16:10
 
In order to discover a phenomenon in this way, you have to have the courage not to know, to stop thinking.
 
16:18
 
A scientist, a real scientist, is someone who has the capacity to stop thinking and who has the courage to admit that he doesn't know.
 
16:27
 
And that's in this little space of not knowing
And that's in this little space of not knowing
16:31
A new knowing is born.
A new knowing is born.
16:33
That's what science is.
That's what science is.
Science is born.
 
There's a paradox.
16:36
 
There's a paradox at the center of it.
There's a paradox at the center of it.
It's beautiful.
 
16:39
 
That's beautiful, Mattias.
That's beautiful, Mattias.
Beautiful.
 
So now the mechanistic worldview, you mentioned this as the source of atomization.
16:42
So I just want to explore that just a little bit because it's, I think, a central thesis of your book.
 
The mechanistic worldview, the idea is that the physical realities, atoms, physical forces, gravity, whatever they are, quantum mechanics, whatever they are, those physical forces are all there are.
So now the mechanistic worldview, you mentioned this as the source of atomization.
 
16:47
 
So I just want to explore that just a little bit because it's, I think, a central thesis of your book.
 
16:52
 
The mechanistic worldview, the idea is that the physical realities, atoms, physical forces, gravity, whatever they are, quantum mechanics, whatever they are, those physical forces are all there are.
 
17:08
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
and in a way, I think the thesis, maybe please correct me if I'm getting it wrong, but like the thesis that you put forward in the book is that this is alienating because there's no inherent meaning in just a random collection of atoms.
 
17:24
 
and in a way, I think the thesis, maybe please correct me if I'm getting it wrong, but like the thesis that you put forward in the book is that this is alienating because there's no inherent meaning in just a random collection of atoms.
 
17:39
 
Yeah, that's one problem.
Yeah, that's one problem.
Yes, indeed.
 
If you consider the universe to be like a dead, a material machine, then this machine goes around without meaning.
17:42
 
If you consider the universe to be like a dead, a material machine, then this machine goes around without meaning.
 
17:50
 
It has no purpose or meaning.
It has no purpose or meaning.
So that's one level at which you can see that this mechanist-fueled man in the world leads to a loss of purpose and meaning in life.
 
But there is a much more profound process, I think, like this mechanist thinking, this rationalist thinking,
17:51
even purely at the psychological level leads already to loneliness because for instance you can explain that in many ways but if you're confronted with someone who is
 
fundamentally convinced that he understands you in a rational way that he knows who you are that he knows you perfectly you will feel no connection just because in this case you feel completely it's as if you don't exist for that person because he believes that he
So that's one level at which you can see that this mechanist-fueled man in the world leads to a loss of purpose and meaning in life.
completely understands you in a rational way already so that's a very alienating experience but then beyond that beyond the psychological level you can see that this rationalist fuel man in the world led to the industrialization of the world to the mechanization of the world to the use of more and more technology and that in itself disconnected people from each other and you can i explain in my book like for instance even the invention of a simple mechanic device such as a watch
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32
17:57
in this way the real communications are constantly replaced by technological communication and technology does connect us to each other but only at the level of the exchange of information but it takes away it destroys the physical resonance between people
 
if people meet in person in the real world while they are talking their bodies for instance and their soul actually constantly resonates with each other we constantly imitate each other's the tensions in the muscles on the other's face the bodily postures and so on we constantly without knowing it imitate each other and that's why we constantly feel
But there is a much more profound process, I think, like this mechanist thinking, this rationalist thinking,
 
18:06
 
even purely at the psychological level leads already to loneliness because for instance you can explain that in many ways but if you're confronted with someone who is
 
18:18
 
fundamentally convinced that he understands you in a rational way that he knows who you are that he knows you perfectly you will feel no connection just because in this case you feel completely it's as if you don't exist for that person because he believes that he
 
18:37
 
completely understands you in a rational way already so that's a very alienating experience but then beyond that beyond the psychological level you can see that this rationalist fuel man in the world led to the industrialization of the world to the mechanization of the world to the use of more and more technology and that in itself disconnected people from each other and you can i explain in my book like for instance even the invention of a simple mechanic device such as a watch
 
19:04
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32
 
19:32
 
in this way the real communications are constantly replaced by technological communication and technology does connect us to each other but only at the level of the exchange of information but it takes away it destroys the physical resonance between people
 
19:51
 
if people meet in person in the real world while they are talking their bodies for instance and their soul actually constantly resonates with each other we constantly imitate each other's the tensions in the muscles on the other's face the bodily postures and so on we constantly without knowing it imitate each other and that's why we constantly feel
 
20:16
 
We empathically resonate with the other.
We empathically resonate with the other.
20:19
We feel a little bit what the other feels.
We feel a little bit what the other feels.
And this process of empathic resonance is reduced by, I guess, 90% or something when communicating in a technological way.
 
And that's exactly why people, for instance, during the first lockdown, many people reported that when you have to teach
20:21
and for eight hours straight online then in a strange way you feel exhausted and in a very strange way which is hard to pinpoint but the reason is that while you're talking in a digital way your body constantly tries to connect to the body of the other but it fails to do so
 
or maybe it can connect only for 10% and that's why you try time and time again to feel this symbiotic resonance with the other and you get exhausted because you constantly fail to do so I think it was
And this process of empathic resonance is reduced by, I guess, 90% or something when communicating in a technological way.
There was a certain guy on Twitter who said what makes digital communication so exhausting is the fact that we are constantly in the presence of the absence of the other when we talk in a digital way.
 
20:33
 
And that's exactly why people, for instance, during the first lockdown, many people reported that when you have to teach
 
20:39
 
and for eight hours straight online then in a strange way you feel exhausted and in a very strange way which is hard to pinpoint but the reason is that while you're talking in a digital way your body constantly tries to connect to the body of the other but it fails to do so
 
21:02
 
or maybe it can connect only for 10% and that's why you try time and time again to feel this symbiotic resonance with the other and you get exhausted because you constantly fail to do so I think it was
 
21:17
 
There was a certain guy on Twitter who said what makes digital communication so exhausting is the fact that we are constantly in the presence of the absence of the other when we talk in a digital way.
 
21:32
 
You don't know how people are actually reacting to you.
You don't know how people are actually reacting to you.
21:35
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
with Mattias Desmet
 
22:18
 
The Illusion of Consensus with Mattias Desmet
The Illusion of Consensus with Mattias Desmet
This devotion to the ideology of science, this reliance on digital connections, Zoom, essentially allowed us to disconnect from each other, thinking that we were going to do this in a safe way, in a way that's going to allow us to not get sick and still remain human.
 
22:37
 
This devotion to the ideology of science, this reliance on digital connections, Zoom, essentially allowed us to disconnect from each other, thinking that we were going to do this in a safe way, in a way that's going to allow us to not get sick and still remain human.
 
22:59
 
But in fact, that disconnection
But in fact, that disconnection
23:02
undermined our humanity in many ways.
undermined our humanity in many ways.
23:05
It allowed us to think of each other as biohazards
It allowed us to think of each other as biohazards
23:09
rather than as fellow human beings.
rather than as fellow human beings.
23:11
Yeah, it leads to mass formation.
Yeah, it leads to mass formation.
That's the clue of the book, I think, that the rationalist view on men in the world in many ways led to loneliness.
 
And once people feel lonely, they spontaneously will feel that their life is without purpose or meaning because as a human being, we spontaneously have the feeling that our life makes sense, that our life has purpose and meaning when we see that we have an effect on the other.
23:14
and when we feel lonely we don't have these spontaneous experiences anymore of seeing
 
that we have an effect on the face of the other on the body of the other and so on and that's why spontaneously as soon as someone feels lonely he usually will start to feel that his life is without purpose or meaning and then in a second step something extremely important happens when someone feels lonely feels that his life is without meaning or purpose he will typically be confronted with very specific affective phenomena
That's the clue of the book, I think, that the rationalist view on men in the world in many ways led to loneliness.
and more in particular he will feel anxious frustrated aggressive without knowing what he feels anxious frustrated and aggressive for and that's an extremely aversive mental state if we feel anxious and we don't know what we feel anxious for we have the feeling that we are completely out of control so and and that's the state where a human being becomes extremely vulnerable for propaganda and that's the that's when when and when someone is in this state
 
and a narrative is distributed to through the mass media providing an object of anxiety like a virus or the Jews or the or the the aristocracy or the witches or the doesn't matter what when a narrative is distributed which
23:22
provides an object of anxiety, all this free-floating anxiety might suddenly connect to this object of anxiety and people might be willing to participate in a strategy to deal with that object of anxiety even if the strategy is utterly absurd.
 
I mean, what's very interesting about that is, I mean, COVID is a real threat.
And once people feel lonely, they spontaneously will feel that their life is without purpose or meaning because as a human being, we spontaneously have the feeling that our life makes sense, that our life has purpose and meaning when we see that we have an effect on the other.
It's a real virus, and it killed many, many people, and it killed, in particular, posed a major threat to older people.
 
So it's not that this is, that the threat, it has to be fictional, right?
23:39
 
and when we feel lonely we don't have these spontaneous experiences anymore of seeing
 
23:45
 
that we have an effect on the face of the other on the body of the other and so on and that's why spontaneously as soon as someone feels lonely he usually will start to feel that his life is without purpose or meaning and then in a second step something extremely important happens when someone feels lonely feels that his life is without meaning or purpose he will typically be confronted with very specific affective phenomena
 
24:13
 
and more in particular he will feel anxious frustrated aggressive without knowing what he feels anxious frustrated and aggressive for and that's an extremely aversive mental state if we feel anxious and we don't know what we feel anxious for we have the feeling that we are completely out of control so and and that's the state where a human being becomes extremely vulnerable for propaganda and that's the that's when when and when someone is in this state
 
24:41
 
and a narrative is distributed to through the mass media providing an object of anxiety like a virus or the Jews or the or the the aristocracy or the witches or the doesn't matter what when a narrative is distributed which
 
24:58
 
provides an object of anxiety, all this free-floating anxiety might suddenly connect to this object of anxiety and people might be willing to participate in a strategy to deal with that object of anxiety even if the strategy is utterly absurd.
 
25:14
 
I mean, what's very interesting about that is, I mean, COVID is a real threat.
 
25:20
 
It's a real virus, and it killed many, many people, and it killed, in particular, posed a major threat to older people.
 
25:28
 
So it's not that this is, that the threat, it has to be fictional, right?
 
25:34
 
In COVID, the threat wasn't fictional.
In COVID, the threat wasn't fictional.
25:35
No, no, no, no, no, no.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
What you're saying, and I think is very important, is that the threat is met with a population
 
that is psychologically primed to handle it poorly because of this anxiety, this disconnection, this loneliness.
25:36
Exactly, of course there was a virus and there was a certain danger associated to the virus but the problem is when as soon as this process of mass formation starts and as soon as all this anxiety, all this free-floating anxiety is connected to the object of anxiety, the field of attention becomes extremely narrow
 
and it is as if people see only one danger anymore and it is this virus and for instance all the adverse effects of the corona mandates the corona measures the vaccines and so on it is as if they don't exist just because all this anxiety is associated to this one object of anxiety and that's
What you're saying, and I think is very important, is that the threat is met with a population
That's the real problem with mass formation, that it focuses the attention so much on one object of anxiety that all the rest disappears into the background.
 
Matthias, I have to say that that was striking to me through the entire pandemic because my first reaction to hearing about the idea of a lockdown was to the damage it was going to do to the lives of the poor.
25:44
 
that is psychologically primed to handle it poorly because of this anxiety, this disconnection, this loneliness.
 
25:53
 
Exactly, of course there was a virus and there was a certain danger associated to the virus but the problem is when as soon as this process of mass formation starts and as soon as all this anxiety, all this free-floating anxiety is connected to the object of anxiety, the field of attention becomes extremely narrow
 
26:13
 
and it is as if people see only one danger anymore and it is this virus and for instance all the adverse effects of the corona mandates the corona measures the vaccines and so on it is as if they don't exist just because all this anxiety is associated to this one object of anxiety and that's
 
26:32
 
That's the real problem with mass formation, that it focuses the attention so much on one object of anxiety that all the rest disappears into the background.
 
26:43
 
Matthias, I have to say that that was striking to me through the entire pandemic because my first reaction to hearing about the idea of a lockdown was to the damage it was going to do to the lives of the poor.
 
26:59
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
 
27:17
 
with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
 
27:34
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
yeah exactly and so that's that's that's typically the effect of of such a mass phenomenon it it everyone is really literally hypnotized by this one object of anxiety all the attention is attached to it and to this extent that people just are not aware anymore of the rest of reality and and um and then in a second step something even more dangerous happens because many people at the same time
 
Participate in a strategy to deal with that object of anxiety, they feel connected again.
27:50
 
yeah exactly and so that's that's that's typically the effect of of such a mass phenomenon it it everyone is really literally hypnotized by this one object of anxiety all the attention is attached to it and to this extent that people just are not aware anymore of the rest of reality and and um and then in a second step something even more dangerous happens because many people at the same time
 
28:21
 
Participate in a strategy to deal with that object of anxiety, they feel connected again.
 
28:26
 
So they have the feeling that they escaped their loneliness.
So they have the feeling that they escaped their loneliness.
Loneliness which is always the most aversive state for a human being and they feel that they are fighting this collective heroic battle.
 
28:29
 
Loneliness which is always the most aversive state for a human being and they feel that they are fighting this collective heroic battle.
 
28:38
 
with the object of anxiety.
with the object of anxiety.
28:40
So can I say as someone who is the victim of this, right?
So can I say as someone who is the victim of this, right?
So I'm in public saying all of these other harms, these collateral harms are going to come of this strategy that we're following.
 
And my focus is on the children, on the poor, on working class people that their lives are being devastated by these policies, even not so much as by the virus, but the policies.
28:45
and suddenly I am the focus of attack by the press, by my colleagues.
 
I'm the villain.
So I'm in public saying all of these other harms, these collateral harms are going to come of this strategy that we're following.
 
28:55
 
And my focus is on the children, on the poor, on working class people that their lives are being devastated by these policies, even not so much as by the virus, but the policies.
 
29:07
 
and suddenly I am the focus of attack by the press, by my colleagues.
 
29:18
 
I'm sure you face this too, Mattias, in your own book.
I'm sure you face this too, Mattias, in your own book.
29:22
Yes, and so it was striking.
Yes, and so it was striking.
29:25
It's like as if we're the scapegoat.
It's like as if we're the scapegoat.
If it only can get rid of me and you and a few other crazy people, then we can deal with the real problem, which is COVID.
 
Yeah, exactly.
29:28
Exactly.
 
If it only can get rid of me and you and a few other crazy people, then we can deal with the real problem, which is COVID.
 
29:40
 
That's what happens.
That's what happens.
That's what happens because mass formation seems to liberate people, seems to free people from all their problems.
 
They felt lonely.
29:41
 
That's what happens because mass formation seems to liberate people, seems to free people from all their problems.
 
29:50
 
They felt that their life was without purpose.
They felt that their life was without purpose.
29:53
They felt anxious, frustrated, aggressive.
They felt anxious, frustrated, aggressive.
29:55
And now suddenly there is this narrative.
And now suddenly there is this narrative.
which gives which connects them again to each other which gives them a new purpose in life and which allows them to control their anxiety and to take their frustration and aggression out
 
on all the scapegoats on all those who do not want to go along with the narrative that's what happens and the strange thing is that history has shown that if the masses go to the last stage of the mass formation and start to destroy each and everyone who doesn't go along with them well in that case as soon as everyone is destroyed that happened that happened so clearly in the soviet union for instance they they find a new enemy
29:57
 
which gives which connects them again to each other which gives them a new purpose in life and which allows them to control their anxiety and to take their frustration and aggression out
 
30:10
 
on all the scapegoats on all those who do not want to go along with the narrative that's what happens and the strange thing is that history has shown that if the masses go to the last stage of the mass formation and start to destroy each and everyone who doesn't go along with them well in that case as soon as everyone is destroyed that happened that happened so clearly in the soviet union for instance they they find a new enemy
 
30:36
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
which does not happen because people connect to each other from individual to individual, from human being to human being, no a mass is a group that emerges because each individual separately connects to a collective ideal meaning that
 
the famous solidarity in the masses is and is never a solidarity between individuals it's always a solidarity from an individual to a collective and the longer a mass formation exists the more every individual demands of every other individual that it sacrifices everything
31:07
 
which does not happen because people connect to each other from individual to individual, from human being to human being, no a mass is a group that emerges because each individual separately connects to a collective ideal meaning that
 
31:23
 
the famous solidarity in the masses is and is never a solidarity between individuals it's always a solidarity from an individual to a collective and the longer a mass formation exists the more every individual demands of every other individual that it sacrifices everything
 
31:42
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
32:03
Solidarity with individuals is forbidden in a mass.
Solidarity with individuals is forbidden in a mass.
32:07
Only the solidarity with the collective.
Only the solidarity with the collective.
Right.
 
The individual, my fellow human beings, my children, my wife, my friends, they're all biohazards.
32:09
 
The individual, my fellow human beings, my children, my wife, my friends, they're all biohazards.
 
32:18
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
32:35
The Illusion of Consensus featuring Mattias Desmet
The Illusion of Consensus featuring Mattias Desmet
with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
 
In the context of this mimicry, we latch onto a set of things that not everybody can have.
32:52
 
with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
 
33:13
 
In the context of this mimicry, we latch onto a set of things that not everybody can have.
 
33:19
 
There's competition for this limited set of things.
There's competition for this limited set of things.
33:23
This is Rene Girard's story.
This is Rene Girard's story.
In that competition, because everybody cannot have this thing that we've copied each other's desire to have, it creates conflict.
 
and there's social conflict because oh look the safety that I want is being threatened by the person who's walking down the street unmasked
33:26
It's being threatened by the man on the podcast or the TV saying, you know, we should care about the poor who are suffering because of the lockdowns.
 
In that competition, because everybody cannot have this thing that we've copied each other's desire to have, it creates conflict.
 
33:38
 
and there's social conflict because oh look the safety that I want is being threatened by the person who's walking down the street unmasked
 
33:48
 
It's being threatened by the man on the podcast or the TV saying, you know, we should care about the poor who are suffering because of the lockdowns.
 
33:57
 
It's being threatened.
It's being threatened.
And so the creation of a scapegoat then and the destruction of that scapegoat relieves the psychological tension created by the fact that the desires that we have in this alienated state cannot be fulfilled.
 
33:59
 
And so the creation of a scapegoat then and the destruction of that scapegoat relieves the psychological tension created by the fact that the desires that we have in this alienated state cannot be fulfilled.
 
34:14
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
You always need a scapegoat and there are many reasons because you needed to take out your frustration and aggression on and you need it for many reasons and that's why indeed as you said history has shown it very clearly.
 
Once a mass formation starts it always needs new scapegoats when George Orwell also knew that very well.
34:37
 
You always need a scapegoat and there are many reasons because you needed to take out your frustration and aggression on and you need it for many reasons and that's why indeed as you said history has shown it very clearly.
 
34:51
 
Once a mass formation starts it always needs new scapegoats when George Orwell also knew that very well.
 
34:58
 
He knew that very well.
He knew that very well.
that's exactly what he mentions in 1984 there always needs to be an enemy always you had a very interesting point in your book about measurability
 
and it seems like a detour but it's actually really central I think to your theme and to why your story makes so much sense.
35:01
Think back to the COVID crisis and especially think back to 2020, 2021 where we were all looking in the newspapers and elsewhere
 
that's exactly what he mentions in 1984 there always needs to be an enemy always you had a very interesting point in your book about measurability
 
35:14
 
and it seems like a detour but it's actually really central I think to your theme and to why your story makes so much sense.
 
35:22
 
Think back to the COVID crisis and especially think back to 2020, 2021 where we were all looking in the newspapers and elsewhere
 
35:32
 
at these curves measuring how many cases there were.
at these curves measuring how many cases there were.
Is there an uptick?
 
35:38
 
Have we reached the top?
Have we reached the top?
And we attached a sort of narrative to us that if the curve is moving it's because of something we together did.
 
If it's going up, it's because there's some bad guys that are not listening to the measures.
35:40
 
And we attached a sort of narrative to us that if the curve is moving it's because of something we together did.
 
35:51
 
If it's going up, it's because there's some bad guys that are not listening to the measures.
 
35:57
 
When it's going down, it's because of things we did.
When it's going down, it's because of things we did.
36:00
All of our attention was focused on that measurable thing.
All of our attention was focused on that measurable thing.
While vast numbers of people were suffering from the lockdowns, from many, many other
 
Health conditions that afflict humans, psychological harm at scale and we didn't measure those, those are not put in front of the public and so they meant nothing.
36:05
Yeah, exactly.
 
Yes, I think that one of the big problems of our culture is an exaggerated belief in the objectivity of numbers.
While vast numbers of people were suffering from the lockdowns, from many, many other
We are under the illusion that numbers represent facts but they don't.
 
They represent one
36:14
 
Health conditions that afflict humans, psychological harm at scale and we didn't measure those, those are not put in front of the public and so they meant nothing.
 
36:25
 
Yes, I think that one of the big problems of our culture is an exaggerated belief in the objectivity of numbers.
 
36:34
 
We are under the illusion that numbers represent facts but they don't.
 
36:42
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Then we were under the illusion that this was an objective representation of reality, but there is no objective measurement possible of the number of people who are dying.
 
37:05
 
Then we were under the illusion that this was an objective representation of reality, but there is no objective measurement possible of the number of people who are dying.
 
37:13
 
People die from many
People die from many
and it takes a philosophical discussion to determine whether or not someone died of COVID and of course there are meaningful and less meaningful ways of counting the number of victims claimed by the virus and I believe that we counted them in a much too enthusiastic way that even the CDC admitted that from
 
I think April 2022 onwards, somewhere around 40% of the people who were registered as COVID casualties actually were not, or their death was not caused by the virus.
37:17
So the counting itself is a problem, because people always die for many reasons.
 
Dying of something, dying is always an intrinsically multidimensional phenomenon.
and it takes a philosophical discussion to determine whether or not someone died of COVID and of course there are meaningful and less meaningful ways of counting the number of victims claimed by the virus and I believe that we counted them in a much too enthusiastic way that even the CDC admitted that from
measuring something or counting something is always a unit is always comparing something with a unidimensional scale of the real numbers multiplied by a measurement scale and that's why measurement from most phenomena is not really objective so that's the first problem and then the second one is of course
 
37:39
 
I think April 2022 onwards, somewhere around 40% of the people who were registered as COVID casualties actually were not, or their death was not caused by the virus.
 
37:52
 
So the counting itself is a problem, because people always die for many reasons.
 
37:59
 
Dying of something, dying is always an intrinsically multidimensional phenomenon.
 
38:06
 
measuring something or counting something is always a unit is always comparing something with a unidimensional scale of the real numbers multiplied by a measurement scale and that's why measurement from most phenomena is not really objective so that's the first problem and then the second one is of course
 
38:26
 
How do you interpret the numbers?
How do you interpret the numbers?
If you see how the excess death increases, well, how will you interpret it?
 
If you see how the number of COVID patients dying increases, how will you interpret it?
38:28
Is this an indication of the intrinsic mortality of the virus or does it have to do with the medical treatment that is not optimal?
 
You don't know.
If you see how the excess death increases, well, how will you interpret it?
What's interesting to me is that in that sense is that it fed into this science as ideology kind of paradigm that you mentioned Mattias that if I can measure it therefore it's real well that's
 
like no one says in science no one in science says that i mean we measure things in science because we want to test theories we want to test ideas we want to we want to find the real but no one in science says that if i can't measure it therefore it's not real maybe i'll be able to measure it in the future right that's the ambition of science for something maybe but we also have this humility that there may be things that we are not thinking of
38:34
 
If you see how the number of COVID patients dying increases, how will you interpret it?
 
38:42
 
Is this an indication of the intrinsic mortality of the virus or does it have to do with the medical treatment that is not optimal?
 
38:51
 
What's interesting to me is that in that sense is that it fed into this science as ideology kind of paradigm that you mentioned Mattias that if I can measure it therefore it's real well that's
 
39:06
 
like no one says in science no one in science says that i mean we measure things in science because we want to test theories we want to test ideas we want to we want to find the real but no one in science says that if i can't measure it therefore it's not real maybe i'll be able to measure it in the future right that's the ambition of science for something maybe but we also have this humility that there may be things that we are not thinking of
 
39:28
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
 
It is, and that's the point, we are always under the illusion that measurement is an objective act, but it is a very subjective act.
39:45
And as soon as there are strong subjective forces such as mass formation who emerge in a society, the measurement is just following these phenomena.
 
The numbers will be constructed and interpreted starting from these strong subjective affective
Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
social forces and that's why the numbers will just usually the numbers presented in the media for instance they will just be selected and constructed in such a way that they confirm this narrative that seizes control of of the masses that that's that's the tremendous psychological problem you're facing in such in such situations
 
Okay, so I want to turn from now, I think we now have the background for the psychological basis, the root that you've identified for much of the pathology that happened during the COVID crisis.
40:08
But I want to turn now to the role of leaders and the people in what transpired during COVID, right?
 
So on the one hand, you have this population, most of the population
It is, and that's the point, we are always under the illusion that measurement is an objective act, but it is a very subjective act.
atomized uh essentially focused on on a narrow set of outcomes very anxious with this idea that if we if we just follow the science this ideological version of science i can be free of this danger the scapegoating the and the and this this phenomenon as you've described it is is you call it a mass phenomenon what that means is that it happened to regular people
 
40:18
 
And as soon as there are strong subjective forces such as mass formation who emerge in a society, the measurement is just following these phenomena.
 
40:27
 
The numbers will be constructed and interpreted starting from these strong subjective affective
 
40:36
 
social forces and that's why the numbers will just usually the numbers presented in the media for instance they will just be selected and constructed in such a way that they confirm this narrative that seizes control of of the masses that that's that's the tremendous psychological problem you're facing in such in such situations
 
41:03
 
Okay, so I want to turn from now, I think we now have the background for the psychological basis, the root that you've identified for much of the pathology that happened during the COVID crisis.
 
41:16
 
But I want to turn now to the role of leaders and the people in what transpired during COVID, right?
 
41:26
 
So on the one hand, you have this population, most of the population
 
41:33
 
atomized uh essentially focused on on a narrow set of outcomes very anxious with this idea that if we if we just follow the science this ideological version of science i can be free of this danger the scapegoating the and the and this this phenomenon as you've described it is is you call it a mass phenomenon what that means is that it happened to regular people
 
41:59
 
Most of us, let's just say.
Most of us, let's just say.
42:03
And the highly educated or even more sensitive to it.
And the highly educated or even more sensitive to it.
42:09
That's very typical.
That's very typical.
42:11
Gustave Le Bon described that already in the 19th century.
Gustave Le Bon described that already in the 19th century.
He said the higher the level of education, the more vulnerable for mass formation.
 
Which is why universities were such dangerous places to be if you were a rebel.
42:14
 
He said the higher the level of education, the more vulnerable for mass formation.
 
42:19
 
Which is why universities were such dangerous places to be if you were a rebel.
 
42:22
 
But then what is the role of leaders in this?
But then what is the role of leaders in this?
There are a lot of people looking at this in retrospect and they're saying, well, you know, our leaders tricked us.
 
42:29
 
There are a lot of people looking at this in retrospect and they're saying, well, you know, our leaders tricked us.
 
42:36
 
I mean, I have to say I've had this thought myself.
I mean, I have to say I've had this thought myself.
In fact, I wrote a piece with Martin Kulldorff in 2021, I think, saying that Fauci fooled America.
 
The Illusion of Consensus featuring Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora
42:38
But is it right to say that he just fooled the public or is there more to it than that?
 
Because the story you're telling is not just one or two leaders that take over.
In fact, I wrote a piece with Martin Kulldorff in 2021, I think, saying that Fauci fooled America.
It's a population prime to be taken over by these kinds of phenomena.
 
Yes, of course.
42:46
It's literally a complex dynamical phenomenon of which both the leaders and the population are part of.
 
And it's very interesting to consider this phenomenon from a broader historical perspective.
The Illusion of Consensus featuring Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora
So mass formation and crowds and mass formation have always existed.
 
43:08
 
But is it right to say that he just fooled the public or is there more to it than that?
 
43:14
 
Because the story you're telling is not just one or two leaders that take over.
 
43:20
 
It's a population prime to be taken over by these kinds of phenomena.
 
43:28
 
It's literally a complex dynamical phenomenon of which both the leaders and the population are part of.
 
43:36
 
And it's very interesting to consider this phenomenon from a broader historical perspective.
 
43:42
 
So mass formation and crowds and mass formation have always existed.
 
43:46
 
Like we have had the witch hunts and the crusades and stuff.
Like we have had the witch hunts and the crusades and stuff.
43:49
These were classical examples of mass formation.
These were classical examples of mass formation.
But throughout the last few centuries, the masses became stronger and stronger and stronger.
 
And that was the reason why in the beginning of the 20th century, a new kind of state emerged, the so-called totalitarian state, which is completely different from a classical dictatorship because it is based on mass formation.
43:52
 
But throughout the last few centuries, the masses became stronger and stronger and stronger.
 
43:58
 
And that was the reason why in the beginning of the 20th century, a new kind of state emerged, the so-called totalitarian state, which is completely different from a classical dictatorship because it is based on mass formation.
 
44:15
 
A classical dictatorship is not based on mass formation.
A classical dictatorship is not based on mass formation.
People are just psychologically scared of a small group of people and they just do what they want because they are scared of them.
 
That's in a nutshell and a little bit simplistic what a classical dictatorship is.
44:18
But in totalitarian states something completely different happens.
 
People are just psychologically scared of a small group of people and they just do what they want because they are scared of them.
 
44:24
 
That's in a nutshell and a little bit simplistic what a classical dictatorship is.
 
44:29
 
But in totalitarian states something completely different happens.
 
44:32
 
There is first a phenomenon of mass formation in which
There is first a phenomenon of mass formation in which
The population becomes fanatically convinced of a certain narrative, an ideologically driven narrative and then the masses together with some leaders can seize control of society and install a new kind of state which has a huge secret police namely this part of the population
 
which believes so fanatically in the narrative that they are prepared to report everyone to the state who doesn't follow it so that's a totalitarian state and the big question of course is why did this totalitarian state emerge for the first time in the 20th century and not before and then the answer is that
44:35
Before the 20th century, the masses, the phenomenon of mass formation was not strong enough and didn't last long enough to be used as the basis of a state system.
 
The population becomes fanatically convinced of a certain narrative, an ideologically driven narrative and then the masses together with some leaders can seize control of society and install a new kind of state which has a huge secret police namely this part of the population
 
44:54
 
which believes so fanatically in the narrative that they are prepared to report everyone to the state who doesn't follow it so that's a totalitarian state and the big question of course is why did this totalitarian state emerge for the first time in the 20th century and not before and then the answer is that
 
45:11
 
Before the 20th century, the masses, the phenomenon of mass formation was not strong enough and didn't last long enough to be used as the basis of a state system.
 
45:25
 
And that's the very interesting, if you look
And that's the very interesting, if you look
how the masses become mass formation lasted longer and longer then you can clearly see that both the elite played a role and the population itself they both played a role like starting from the French Revolution onwards for instance there were more and more people at the level of the elite who became convinced that the only way to
 
Keep control of society was through constant psychological manipulation.
45:28
 
how the masses become mass formation lasted longer and longer then you can clearly see that both the elite played a role and the population itself they both played a role like starting from the French Revolution onwards for instance there were more and more people at the level of the elite who became convinced that the only way to
 
45:54
 
Keep control of society was through constant psychological manipulation.
 
45:58
 
We often forget that but
We often forget that but
Immediately after the French Revolution, the first modern institute of propaganda emerged.
 
46:02
 
Immediately after the French Revolution, the first modern institute of propaganda emerged.
 
46:11
 
And starting from then, propaganda became ever more important.
And starting from then, propaganda became ever more important.
And what we see now is that most global institutions, like the UN for instance, I wrote an essay on that on my Substack, become convinced that it is their holy duty to mislead the population a little bit, or at least
 
to manufacture content ideological content and for instance during the corona crisis they hired 110 000 so-called digital first responders
46:15
to constantly put people who had a different opinion in a bad daylight.
 
And I'm sure that most people at the level of the UN who actually recruited all these digital first responders are convinced of their own good intentions.
And what we see now is that most global institutions, like the UN for instance, I wrote an essay on that on my Substack, become convinced that it is their holy duty to mislead the population a little bit, or at least
They were convinced that it was their duty to make sure that the population went along, bought into this narrative.
 
I saw this too I mean I think it was and it's striking because let's just take someone working in a pharmaceutical company on a vaccine right I have friends that do this actually who work in for pharmaceutical companies they don't think that they're doing bad in fact quite the opposite they think they're doing good and they may be doing good right that's not that's not but and for them the crisis was something that they're that they're
46:30
 
to manufacture content ideological content and for instance during the corona crisis they hired 110 000 so-called digital first responders
 
46:43
 
to constantly put people who had a different opinion in a bad daylight.
 
46:49
 
And I'm sure that most people at the level of the UN who actually recruited all these digital first responders are convinced of their own good intentions.
 
46:59
 
They were convinced that it was their duty to make sure that the population went along, bought into this narrative.
 
47:09
 
I saw this too I mean I think it was and it's striking because let's just take someone working in a pharmaceutical company on a vaccine right I have friends that do this actually who work in for pharmaceutical companies they don't think that they're doing bad in fact quite the opposite they think they're doing good and they may be doing good right that's not that's not but and for them the crisis was something that they're that they're
 
47:36
 
Diving into using their expertise to help.
Diving into using their expertise to help.
47:39
I think that's true for a lot of them.
I think that's true for a lot of them.
Basically, it's hard to find too many people that are so cynical that I'm going to lie just for my own advantage.
 
47:41
 
Basically, it's hard to find too many people that are so cynical that I'm going to lie just for my own advantage.
 
47:52
 
It's in fact even more dangerous.
It's in fact even more dangerous.
47:56
They're convinced that they're doing the right thing.
They're convinced that they're doing the right thing.
Even when they're cutting ethical corners, even when they're putting forward things that they haven't really tested well, even when they are telling the public so-called noble lies and ignoring
 
48:00
 
Even when they're cutting ethical corners, even when they're putting forward things that they haven't really tested well, even when they are telling the public so-called noble lies and ignoring
 
48:15
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
and the public, much of the public was happy to let that happen because they thought it would address the crisis.
 
Exactly.
48:45
 
and the public, much of the public was happy to let that happen because they thought it would address the crisis.
 
48:54
 
Ideological blindness is the major
Ideological blindness is the major
driving factor in emerging totalitarianism much more than money and power that's Hannah Arendt I think made a very accurate analysis there she said it's not the lust for money and power in the first place it's in the first place an ideological drive a blind ideological drive which that's the problem with these many of these experts not all of them we should differentiate between them but the problem is that they are so convinced
 
48:59
 
driving factor in emerging totalitarianism much more than money and power that's Hannah Arendt I think made a very accurate analysis there she said it's not the lust for money and power in the first place it's in the first place an ideological drive a blind ideological drive which that's the problem with these many of these experts not all of them we should differentiate between them but the problem is that they are so convinced
 
49:28
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
changes they want to impose to society that's the real problem and for most people and then we have to differentiate like most totalitarian leaders most leaders of the masses blindly believe their ideology but that doesn't always mean that they believe the narratives they use to maintain to to manipulate the population in such a way that they accept
 
This ideological reshaping of society they see as their end goal.
49:48
 
changes they want to impose to society that's the real problem and for most people and then we have to differentiate like most totalitarian leaders most leaders of the masses blindly believe their ideology but that doesn't always mean that they believe the narratives they use to maintain to to manipulate the population in such a way that they accept
 
50:15
 
This ideological reshaping of society they see as their end goal.
 
50:20
 
So there is a difference.
So there is a difference.
Totalitarian leaders and the leaders of the masses and people who make propaganda usually are blindly convinced of their ideology, but often they do not really believe the narratives they use to manipulate the population.
 
50:22
 
Totalitarian leaders and the leaders of the masses and people who make propaganda usually are blindly convinced of their ideology, but often they do not really believe the narratives they use to manipulate the population.
 
50:35
 
That is a really interesting distinction, right?
That is a really interesting distinction, right?
50:39
So it's as if they're lying and not lying at the same time.
So it's as if they're lying and not lying at the same time.
Yes.
 
50:45
 
Tony Fauci can very honestly think he's doing good.
Tony Fauci can very honestly think he's doing good.
He is the science.
 
50:51
 
If you question him, you're questioning science itself.
If you question him, you're questioning science itself.
It's such an obviously, manifestly ridiculous thing to say or think, and yet he really honestly believes that.
 
50:53
 
It's such an obviously, manifestly ridiculous thing to say or think, and yet he really honestly believes that.
 
51:00
 
His ideology is the science.
His ideology is the science.
He has bought into the entire program that we outlined over the last 45 minutes.
 
and but because he's bought into it because he and he's the high pope of the science he can in his own mind say things that he knows to be untrue because he thinks it will lead the public to do things that he thinks is wise exactly if you read the the books of the founding fathers of modern public relations and propaganda such as I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Edward Bernays
51:02
 
He has bought into the entire program that we outlined over the last 45 minutes.
 
51:10
 
and but because he's bought into it because he and he's the high pope of the science he can in his own mind say things that he knows to be untrue because he thinks it will lead the public to do things that he thinks is wise exactly if you read the the books of the founding fathers of modern public relations and propaganda such as I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Edward Bernays
 
51:35
 
Yes, he's one of the founding fathers of modern propaganda.
Yes, he's one of the founding fathers of modern propaganda.
51:37
That's exactly what he said.
That's exactly what he said.
I have to say, propaganda is not among the set of things I've studied in my life.
 
I started to be interested in it since I studied the psychology of totalitarianism because it's one necessary ingredient of totalitarianism.
51:39
 
I have to say, propaganda is not among the set of things I've studied in my life.
 
51:45
 
I started to be interested in it since I studied the psychology of totalitarianism because it's one necessary ingredient of totalitarianism.
 
51:55
 
So you need two things for a totalitarian state to emerge.
So you need two things for a totalitarian state to emerge.
51:58
On the one hand, you need an elite who can use mass media
On the one hand, you need an elite who can use mass media
to constantly have an impact psychological impact or manipulate the the population and you need the population which feels lonely and so on so you need two things you need you need
 
a specific elite and a specific psychological state in a population Jacques Ellul has described this in a wonderful way how from the 20th century onwards so many people felt lonely that a new kind of mass emerged like ancient masses differed from the modern masses because the modern masses are not
52:04
 
to constantly have an impact psychological impact or manipulate the the population and you need the population which feels lonely and so on so you need two things you need you need
 
52:19
 
a specific elite and a specific psychological state in a population Jacques Ellul has described this in a wonderful way how from the 20th century onwards so many people felt lonely that a new kind of mass emerged like ancient masses differed from the modern masses because the modern masses are not
 
52:41
 
Subtitles by the Amara.org community
Subtitles by the Amara.org community
And this kind of lonely mass can last much, much longer and can be controlled much, much better than the physical masses of yesteryear.
 
53:00
 
And this kind of lonely mass can last much, much longer and can be controlled much, much better than the physical masses of yesteryear.
 
53:12
 
So that's the point.
So that's the point.
And that's why these masses, lonely masses, can be used as a psychological basis of totalitarian states.
 
53:13
 
And that's why these masses, lonely masses, can be used as a psychological basis of totalitarian states.
 
53:23
 
And I really believe
And I really believe
that we are really at risk of being confronted with a new kind of totalitarianism now technocratic totalitarianism which in which the underlying ideology might be a transhumanist technocratic ideology that's the logical consequence of a radical mechanistic fuel man in the world if you look at the human being and at the universe
 
As a machine, a mechanistic entity, then it's only logical that you want a technical expert to be in control of the machine.
53:25
Why would you ask a democratically elected politician without rational knowledge to determine how the machine should function and so on and so on?
 
No.
that we are really at risk of being confronted with a new kind of totalitarianism now technocratic totalitarianism which in which the underlying ideology might be a transhumanist technocratic ideology that's the logical consequence of a radical mechanistic fuel man in the world if you look at the human being and at the universe
You need an expert.
 
Guys, you could maybe at some point just let the machine itself take over.
53:54
 
As a machine, a mechanistic entity, then it's only logical that you want a technical expert to be in control of the machine.
 
54:04
 
Why would you ask a democratically elected politician without rational knowledge to determine how the machine should function and so on and so on?
 
54:16
 
Guys, you could maybe at some point just let the machine itself take over.
 
54:21
 
Yes, some believe that would be the solution to everything.
Yes, some believe that would be the solution to everything.
Yeah, I mean it's quite striking and I think you're right, there's pointers in that direction.
 
54:25
 
Yeah, I mean it's quite striking and I think you're right, there's pointers in that direction.
 
54:30
 
But let me, before we...
But let me, before we...
54:33
You know, allow ourselves to be despondent.
You know, allow ourselves to be despondent.
People did wake up.
 
We're no longer in 2020, and it doesn't feel as if the corona crisis is any longer causing the kind of mass formation that you describe in your book.
54:37
And so something happened between 2020 and 2024 when we were discussing this that caused so many people, maybe most of the population, to say enough, to wake up.
 
We're no longer in 2020, and it doesn't feel as if the corona crisis is any longer causing the kind of mass formation that you describe in your book.
 
54:49
 
And so something happened between 2020 and 2024 when we were discussing this that caused so many people, maybe most of the population, to say enough, to wake up.
 
55:03
 
And so that's a cause for hope, isn't it?
And so that's a cause for hope, isn't it?
What led to that?
 
55:08
 
People waking up from the situation that they were in?
People waking up from the situation that they were in?
55:13
That usually happens.
That usually happens.
Narratives lead to a mass formation and very often these narratives disappear in the background again.
 
But then, and we could see that very clearly, of course, as soon as one mass formation
55:15
Loses its power a little bit, people start to wake up, but the problem is that they feel even more lonely than before.
 
That's the problem.
Narratives lead to a mass formation and very often these narratives disappear in the background again.
Of course, because during the mass formation, all the solidarity between the people was sucked away and injected in the bond of individuals with the collective.
 
the problematic effect of mass formation that people stop feeling solidarity for each other and they they feel only solidarity with a collective ideal so and if as soon as the the mass formation stops people feel even more lonely than before so and and we could see that very clearly like once back in 2022 i think students were allowed to come to university again they just didn't show up anymore and and people people
55:24
The Illusion of Consensus featuring Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya,
 
and many respects replaced it and then after the Ukraine narrative lost its power a little bit you could see how the Israel-Palestine narrative kicked in and that's so typical when a certain limit, when a certain critical number of people
But then, and we could see that very clearly, of course, as soon as one mass formation
 
55:32
 
Loses its power a little bit, people start to wake up, but the problem is that they feel even more lonely than before.
 
55:44
 
Of course, because during the mass formation, all the solidarity between the people was sucked away and injected in the bond of individuals with the collective.
 
55:56
 
the problematic effect of mass formation that people stop feeling solidarity for each other and they they feel only solidarity with a collective ideal so and if as soon as the the mass formation stops people feel even more lonely than before so and and we could see that very clearly like once back in 2022 i think students were allowed to come to university again they just didn't show up anymore and and people people
 
56:24
 
The Illusion of Consensus featuring Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya,
 
56:53
 
and many respects replaced it and then after the Ukraine narrative lost its power a little bit you could see how the Israel-Palestine narrative kicked in and that's so typical when a certain limit, when a certain critical number of people
 
57:13
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
two new groups emerge one group who buys into the narrative and the group who doesn't and the dividing line between these three groups two groups runs through every pre-existing group through every company every a group of friends every family every couple you see how everything is split into
 
57:31
 
two new groups emerge one group who buys into the narrative and the group who doesn't and the dividing line between these three groups two groups runs through every pre-existing group through every company every a group of friends every family every couple you see how everything is split into
 
57:53
 
by this new group formation.
by this new group formation.
57:55
And that's the characteristic of a fully fledged mass formation.
And that's the characteristic of a fully fledged mass formation.
It is so powerful energetically that it reorganizes the entire society, even all political parties and everything is split in two.
 
57:57
 
It is so powerful energetically that it reorganizes the entire society, even all political parties and everything is split in two.
 
58:06
 
And after the Corona crisis,
And after the Corona crisis,
I don't think the Ukraine crisis or the Middle East crisis have this tremendous power.
 
58:10
 
I don't think the Ukraine crisis or the Middle East crisis have this tremendous power.
 
58:15
 
Those felt like more standard political fights.
Those felt like more standard political fights.
I mean, obviously, they're catastrophic wars, but in terms of the ideology of how it divided, it was along lines one could have predicted, whereas it's very perceptive.
 
58:18
 
I mean, obviously, they're catastrophic wars, but in terms of the ideology of how it divided, it was along lines one could have predicted, whereas it's very perceptive.
 
58:29
 
I hadn't thought of it that way, Mattias.
I hadn't thought of it that way, Mattias.
The corona crisis, and in fact, I'd wondered at this, the corona crisis divided people, but also combined groups of people that would never otherwise have spoken with each other.
 
Yeah, exactly.
58:30
And for me, that's been one of the few blessings of the crisis, is I've gotten to meet so many interesting people who think so differently than me, and yet we came together.
 
And so what is it that led some people to say, look, this doesn't make sense, and others to say, you know, to fall into the ideology of the corona crisis?
The corona crisis, and in fact, I'd wondered at this, the corona crisis divided people, but also combined groups of people that would never otherwise have spoken with each other.
 
58:41
 
And for me, that's been one of the few blessings of the crisis, is I've gotten to meet so many interesting people who think so differently than me, and yet we came together.
 
58:52
 
And so what is it that led some people to say, look, this doesn't make sense, and others to say, you know, to fall into the ideology of the corona crisis?
 
59:05
 
Really, nobody knows.
Really, nobody knows.
throughout the last two centuries everyone who has studied the phenomenon of mass formation has asked this question why do some people fall prey to it and others don't and you know probably at the level of human psychology you can see that we have a few ways at least two but more actually to find a certain stability as a human being
 
and one of the ways is to go along with the group to base to your individual identity and group identity and a second way to find stability and a certain strength in life is to speak in a sincere way and my next book is all about that the psychology of truth and the psychology of speech and some people
59:08
when they have to decide always choose the easy way and they just identify with the ideal images that are circulating in the group and with the narratives that are circulating in the group and other people have the feeling no there is something wrong with this narrative and I can't go along with it and I prefer to speak out and that also gives a certain stability
 
a different kind of power and stability but for one reason or another intuitively or instinctively some people always take the way of group identity and others
throughout the last two centuries everyone who has studied the phenomenon of mass formation has asked this question why do some people fall prey to it and others don't and you know probably at the level of human psychology you can see that we have a few ways at least two but more actually to find a certain stability as a human being
Yeah, choose the other way and try to articulate the words that seem sincere and honest to them.
 
So that's the only thing I could come up with, but you know, this question has been asked time and time again.
59:37
It's puzzled me through the entire pandemic, Mattias, and it's been heartening to see more and more people come to
 
and one of the ways is to go along with the group to base to your individual identity and group identity and a second way to find stability and a certain strength in life is to speak in a sincere way and my next book is all about that the psychology of truth and the psychology of speech and some people
 
60:04
 
when they have to decide always choose the easy way and they just identify with the ideal images that are circulating in the group and with the narratives that are circulating in the group and other people have the feeling no there is something wrong with this narrative and I can't go along with it and I prefer to speak out and that also gives a certain stability
 
60:26
 
a different kind of power and stability but for one reason or another intuitively or instinctively some people always take the way of group identity and others
 
60:42
 
Yeah, choose the other way and try to articulate the words that seem sincere and honest to them.
 
60:49
 
So that's the only thing I could come up with, but you know, this question has been asked time and time again.
 
60:55
 
It's puzzled me through the entire pandemic, Mattias, and it's been heartening to see more and more people come to
 
61:01
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet
find ways to connect and find ways to learn from people even if I disagreed with them earlier and I mean it just I think it has no place but it's been one of the few sources of hopefulness but also puzzlement how do you build a structure a society that is resistant to mass form how do you get more of the people that would say no this narrative makes no sense
 
the art speech that's the only answer you you know a very interesting book it was published during the corona crisis actually by David Graeber you might know the guy he's the the author of yeah yes he published the book together with David Wengro and the title of the book was the dawn of everything and in the beginning in the beginning chapters of this book
61:28
He describes how certain observations of the Catholic priests who tried to Christianize the Indian tribes or the Native American tribes of North
 
Eastern America and he said that so they didn't succeed in Christianizing them these guys couldn't be Christianized for one reason or another but they made very interesting observations and one of the most interesting was the following these priests observed how the Indians could organize their tribal societies without any use of power or force so nobody could command someone else unless in certain exceptional states such as war or something
find ways to connect and find ways to learn from people even if I disagreed with them earlier and I mean it just I think it has no place but it's been one of the few sources of hopefulness but also puzzlement how do you build a structure a society that is resistant to mass form how do you get more of the people that would say no this narrative makes no sense
but in their daily lives there were no power relationships and these priests just tried to understand how these Indians could organize their tribal life in such a way avoiding to use power and they found I think the very relevant answer to the question they said it is because they
 
cultivate the art of sincere speech time and time again hours and hours and hours every week they had very open conversations with each other and if a crime happened they solved it in this way they didn't have to punish someone usually
61:52
And so that's one example where you can see how the art of sincere speech, I think, is really the solution for the phenomenon of totalitarianism and mass formation.
 
Now I cannot go into detail now, but what you can see is that first and for all, sincere speech inhibits mass formation.
the art speech that's the only answer you you know a very interesting book it was published during the corona crisis actually by David Graeber you might know the guy he's the the author of yeah yes he published the book together with David Wengro and the title of the book was the dawn of everything and in the beginning in the beginning chapters of this book
because when people continue to speak out when a mass starts to emerge the mass formation usually will not go to the ultimate stage where they start to destroy each and everyone who doesn't go along with them but there is a second something that is even much more important sincere speech is also by definition speech that connects people from soul to soul and that's what i describe in my new book sincere speech and the phenomenon of truth
 
is always resonating speech it resonates it makes people vibrate together on the same frequencies and in this way
62:15
a real group emerges when people cultivate the art of sincere speech they start to connect from individual to individual and that's how a real group emerges and as soon as the group energetically becomes stronger than the masses which are based on a fundamentally different principle where there is no free speech allowed where everyone
 
identifies with the same collective ideal as soon as the group of people who are connected through sincere speech become energetically stronger than the masses organized by propaganda.
He describes how certain observations of the Catholic priests who tried to Christianize the Indian tribes or the Native American tribes of North
Well, as soon as this happens, the era of totalitarianism is over.
 
That's really, really interesting because what you're saying is it's speech that addresses the loneliness, that addresses the disconnection.
62:31
I'm really looking forward to reading your new book and we should definitely have another conversation when that happens.
 
But I want to end this conversation today with how you ended the book The Psychology of Totalitarianism, which is essentially a proposal to reject the mechanistic worldview as a way of addressing at least the mass formation created by this ideology of science.
Eastern America and he said that so they didn't succeed in Christianizing them these guys couldn't be Christianized for one reason or another but they made very interesting observations and one of the most interesting was the following these priests observed how the Indians could organize their tribal societies without any use of power or force so nobody could command someone else unless in certain exceptional states such as war or something
Yes, I do.
 
63:01
 
but in their daily lives there were no power relationships and these priests just tried to understand how these Indians could organize their tribal life in such a way avoiding to use power and they found I think the very relevant answer to the question they said it is because they
 
63:30
 
cultivate the art of sincere speech time and time again hours and hours and hours every week they had very open conversations with each other and if a crime happened they solved it in this way they didn't have to punish someone usually
 
63:47
 
And so that's one example where you can see how the art of sincere speech, I think, is really the solution for the phenomenon of totalitarianism and mass formation.
 
64:01
 
Now I cannot go into detail now, but what you can see is that first and for all, sincere speech inhibits mass formation.
 
64:10
 
because when people continue to speak out when a mass starts to emerge the mass formation usually will not go to the ultimate stage where they start to destroy each and everyone who doesn't go along with them but there is a second something that is even much more important sincere speech is also by definition speech that connects people from soul to soul and that's what i describe in my new book sincere speech and the phenomenon of truth
 
64:38
 
is always resonating speech it resonates it makes people vibrate together on the same frequencies and in this way
 
64:48
 
a real group emerges when people cultivate the art of sincere speech they start to connect from individual to individual and that's how a real group emerges and as soon as the group energetically becomes stronger than the masses which are based on a fundamentally different principle where there is no free speech allowed where everyone
 
65:11
 
identifies with the same collective ideal as soon as the group of people who are connected through sincere speech become energetically stronger than the masses organized by propaganda.
 
65:23
 
Well, as soon as this happens, the era of totalitarianism is over.
 
65:29
 
That's really, really interesting because what you're saying is it's speech that addresses the loneliness, that addresses the disconnection.
 
65:38
 
I'm really looking forward to reading your new book and we should definitely have another conversation when that happens.
 
65:49
 
But I want to end this conversation today with how you ended the book The Psychology of Totalitarianism, which is essentially a proposal to reject the mechanistic worldview as a way of addressing at least the mass formation created by this ideology of science.
 
66:12
 
It was interesting to read, Mattias, because I'm a Christian.
It was interesting to read, Mattias, because I'm a Christian.
66:16
I believe in God, and I think that's a deep part of my thinking.
I believe in God, and I think that's a deep part of my thinking.
I'm a scientist also, and I understand that some people think there's tension, but I personally don't see any tension.
 
I act as a scientist and so to me that chapter resonated but to many people reading it they'll say well are you proposing to reintroduce religion into let's have more Blaise Pascals let's have more Newtons who were religious people at least what I see is that many of the seminal scientists in the end started to feel the presence of a
66:24
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled
 
uh and my first steps on this road were that i started to realize slowly that um our rational understanding is limited it took me
I'm a scientist also, and I understand that some people think there's tension, but I personally don't see any tension.
until I was 35 years old before I suddenly really understood that what science showed us is exactly this that the essence of life is not rational before that I made many little steps like when I learned about the modern physics I started to understand oh
 
We try to reduce everything to these elementary particles but we don't have a clue what these elementary particles are and they can be at several places at the same time and so on and so on so these elementary particles to which we try to reduce everything are pure mystery and then it took me until
66:32
I was 35 years old before I suddenly understood, oh, Jesus, it's not rational.
 
I act as a scientist and so to me that chapter resonated but to many people reading it they'll say well are you proposing to reintroduce religion into let's have more Blaise Pascals let's have more Newtons who were religious people at least what I see is that many of the seminal scientists in the end started to feel the presence of a
 
67:02
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled
 
67:30
 
uh and my first steps on this road were that i started to realize slowly that um our rational understanding is limited it took me
 
67:42
 
until I was 35 years old before I suddenly really understood that what science showed us is exactly this that the essence of life is not rational before that I made many little steps like when I learned about the modern physics I started to understand oh
 
68:03
 
We try to reduce everything to these elementary particles but we don't have a clue what these elementary particles are and they can be at several places at the same time and so on and so on so these elementary particles to which we try to reduce everything are pure mystery and then it took me until
 
68:24
 
I was 35 years old before I suddenly understood, oh, Jesus, it's not rational.
 
68:30
 
The world around us is not rational.
The world around us is not rational.
It is not rational.
 
68:35
 
Essentially, we can use our brain and I hope we do so.
Essentially, we can use our brain and I hope we do so.
I'm a very rational person and I think I will continue to be a very rational person, but I got rid of the illusion
 
that my rational understanding is the real understanding and that my rational understanding would be capable of grasping the essence of life that's just not true the essence of life transcends rationality and as soon as i started to understand that slowly i started to look at nature around me and i looked at the plant
68:41
I realized that the plant was a mystery and that for my rational understanding it would always remain a mystery and I started to feel so much better the presence
 
of a certain mind that transcends my own rational mind and that speaks to me through everything around me and you know even when I was 22 or 23 I started to become a little bit aware that there was such a thing as a god again but it took me longer because I really
I'm a very rational person and I think I will continue to be a very rational person, but I got rid of the illusion
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora
 
To articulate such ideas in the academic world, you have to be a really courageous person.
68:47
And for me, he deserved the Nobel Prize even more for what he said about religion and God than for his discoveries, which are
 
fascinating and wonderful discoveries scientific discoveries but even ultimately understanding that the essence of matter of elementary particles transcends rationality for me is even more important it's the last and final step your rationality can make that's beautiful Mattias thank you for sharing that story I loved that story and I think I think
that my rational understanding is the real understanding and that my rational understanding would be capable of grasping the essence of life that's just not true the essence of life transcends rationality and as soon as i started to understand that slowly i started to look at nature around me and i looked at the plant
is one of those things where like I it's not one of these things you would require anybody to have but it's something where I mean I actually have a very similar story I could tell but we're running out of time now and I think it's like incredibly meaningful but I wonder whether it is a guard against mass formation because we have as you said we have had
 
Things that look like mass formation using religious ideas as the basis of it.
69:12
Just as science is a beautiful thing, but science becomes an ideology that then becomes the basis for the psychological basis for how mass formation worked.
 
You could also imagine a religious society, a Christian society, you don't have to imagine, you can look at history and see mass formation coming around where Christianity becomes the ideology rather than this freeing thing, this liberating thing that you just described, the experience that you had, which I should say I share entirely.
I realized that the plant was a mystery and that for my rational understanding it would always remain a mystery and I started to feel so much better the presence
The idea of rejecting the materialist worldview doesn't automatically protect us against mass formation.
 
69:24
 
of a certain mind that transcends my own rational mind and that speaks to me through everything around me and you know even when I was 22 or 23 I started to become a little bit aware that there was such a thing as a god again but it took me longer because I really
 
69:48
 
Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora titled Must-Watch Episode 32 Mass Formation Psychosis with Mattias Desmet, Jay Bhattacharya, Rav Arora
 
70:08
 
To articulate such ideas in the academic world, you have to be a really courageous person.
 
70:14
 
And for me, he deserved the Nobel Prize even more for what he said about religion and God than for his discoveries, which are
 
70:28
 
fascinating and wonderful discoveries scientific discoveries but even ultimately understanding that the essence of matter of elementary particles transcends rationality for me is even more important it's the last and final step your rationality can make that's beautiful Mattias thank you for sharing that story I loved that story and I think I think
 
70:57
 
is one of those things where like I it's not one of these things you would require anybody to have but it's something where I mean I actually have a very similar story I could tell but we're running out of time now and I think it's like incredibly meaningful but I wonder whether it is a guard against mass formation because we have as you said we have had
 
71:21
 
Things that look like mass formation using religious ideas as the basis of it.
 
71:27
 
Just as science is a beautiful thing, but science becomes an ideology that then becomes the basis for the psychological basis for how mass formation worked.
 
71:37
 
You could also imagine a religious society, a Christian society, you don't have to imagine, you can look at history and see mass formation coming around where Christianity becomes the ideology rather than this freeing thing, this liberating thing that you just described, the experience that you had, which I should say I share entirely.
 
72:01
 
The idea of rejecting the materialist worldview doesn't automatically protect us against mass formation.
 
72:08
 
You need something more.
You need something more.
What is quintessential is that you never become so convinced of your own ideology that
 
you've you think you don't have any reason anymore to listen to the to the to the to the opinion of someone else that's the most important thing like being always a little bit uncertain never be so sure of what you of your own ideas and your own rational understanding that you find no space anymore where you can allow someone else to enter your mind and to exchange ideas with you that's the most important thing i think and of course
72:10
religious ideologies or religious ideas can also lead to mass formation they will be different they will also be cruel but they will be different but also there we see the same of course what matters is that you
 
Do not become so fanatically convinced of your own doctrine, of your own ideology, that you believe that someone who doesn't follow that ideology is not a human being anymore.
What is quintessential is that you never become so convinced of your own ideology that
 
72:21
 
you've you think you don't have any reason anymore to listen to the to the to the to the opinion of someone else that's the most important thing like being always a little bit uncertain never be so sure of what you of your own ideas and your own rational understanding that you find no space anymore where you can allow someone else to enter your mind and to exchange ideas with you that's the most important thing i think and of course
 
72:47
 
religious ideologies or religious ideas can also lead to mass formation they will be different they will also be cruel but they will be different but also there we see the same of course what matters is that you
 
73:03
 
Do not become so fanatically convinced of your own doctrine, of your own ideology, that you believe that someone who doesn't follow that ideology is not a human being anymore.
 
73:15
 
That's just what ultimately matters, I think.
That's just what ultimately matters, I think.
73:21
And that's the disaster of the scientific discourse.
And that's the disaster of the scientific discourse.
It led so many people to the fanatic belief that there is only one
 
objective and true view of men in the world and that it is the mechanist view of men in the world.
73:24
 
It led so many people to the fanatic belief that there is only one
 
73:32
 
objective and true view of men in the world and that it is the mechanist view of men in the world.
 
73:38
 
That's one of the major problems, I think.
That's one of the major problems, I think.
Mattias, I've kept you longer than I promised I'd keep you, but it's been an absolutely fascinating conversation and we will definitely have you on next time when I've had a chance to read your new book, which I'm very much looking forward to.
 
I think you might be onto something to solve the mass formation problem.
73:41
We need ways to be open to each other, to the speech of each other.
 
Thank you, Mattias.
Mattias, I've kept you longer than I promised I'd keep you, but it's been an absolutely fascinating conversation and we will definitely have you on next time when I've had a chance to read your new book, which I'm very much looking forward to.
This has been Professor Jay Bhattacharya talking with Mattias Desmet for The Illusion of Consensus podcast.
 
73:54
 
I think you might be onto something to solve the mass formation problem.
 
73:59
 
We need ways to be open to each other, to the speech of each other.
 
74:05
 
This has been Professor Jay Bhattacharya talking with Mattias Desmet for The Illusion of Consensus podcast.
 
74:10
 
Thank you for listening.
Thank you for listening.
Until next time.
 
Thank you, Jay.
74:13
 
Thank you for having me on.
Thank you for having me on.
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We've been shopping around trying to find the best sponsors that align with our mission and our values and what we stand for and we've come across Alchemy Elements which I'm very excited to bring to you guys which is a synergistic herbal supplement.
74:15
 
Hi everyone, a quick word from our first and exciting new sponsor, Alchemy Elements.
 
74:21
 
We've been shopping around trying to find the best sponsors that align with our mission and our values and what we stand for and we've come across Alchemy Elements which I'm very excited to bring to you guys which is a synergistic herbal supplement.
 
74:35
 
It's a mix of several adaptogenic
It's a mix of several adaptogenic
Plant Compounds.
 
For those of you who don't know, adaptogens, you might have heard on Andrew Huberman's podcast, are plant medicines that help the body adapt to stress, essentially.
74:40
And so there's a number of adaptogens in here, including cordyceps mushrooms, reishi mushrooms, astralagus, shiljak, polygala, lion's mane mushrooms, and other compounds as well.
 
and you just take a tablespoon of this you put it in your morning coffee or your smoothie or protein shake and you're good to go I've been doing this for about a week and as it suggests some of the short-term effects of increased focus increased concentration more energy I've already been feeling some of that look forward to taking it more in the long term and reporting back as we do more of these ads
For those of you who don't know, adaptogens, you might have heard on Andrew Huberman's podcast, are plant medicines that help the body adapt to stress, essentially.
 
74:52
 
And so there's a number of adaptogens in here, including cordyceps mushrooms, reishi mushrooms, astralagus, shiljak, polygala, lion's mane mushrooms, and other compounds as well.
 
75:03
 
and you just take a tablespoon of this you put it in your morning coffee or your smoothie or protein shake and you're good to go I've been doing this for about a week and as it suggests some of the short-term effects of increased focus increased concentration more energy I've already been feeling some of that look forward to taking it more in the long term and reporting back as we do more of these ads
 
75:27
 
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| Bienvenue à tous dans le podcast L'illusion du consensus.
|valign=top|0:00
Je suis le professeur Jay Bhattacharya et j'ai le plaisir d'accueillir aujourd'hui mon ami Mattias Desmet.
 
Mattias, bienvenue dans l'émission.
Bienvenue à tous dans le podcast L'illusion du consensus.
Il a été difficile de nous réunir, mais je suis ravie que nous y soyons finalement parvenus.
 
De même, Jay.
0:03
Je suis heureux d'être ici et je vous remercie de m'avoir invité.
 
Mattias est donc surtout connu pour un livre qu'il a écrit pendant la pandémie et qui s'intitule The Psychology of Totalitarianism (La psychologie du totalitarisme).
Je suis le professeur Jay Bhattacharya et j'ai le plaisir d'accueillir aujourd'hui mon ami Mattias Desmet.
Nous allons surtout parler des thèmes qu'il a abordés dans ce livre, mais tout le monde devrait savoir que Mattias est professeur à l'université de Gand, en Belgique.
 
et en psychologie en psychologie clinique psychothérapeute praticien mais aussi Mattias vous avez une formation en statistiques oui oui j'ai aussi un master en statistiques et disons que les huit premières années de ma formation académique de mon travail de chercheur j'ai travaillé la plupart du temps en tant que statisticien faisant des recherches sur
0:09
Les problèmes de la recherche universitaire En fait, lorsque j'ai fait mon doctorat, j'ai commencé en 2003, je crois, et deux ans plus tard, la crise de la réplication a commencé, une crise qui a montré que, comme le décrit John Ionitis dans son merveilleux article, la plupart des résultats de recherche publiés sont erronés.
 
Une crise qui a montré que d'énormes pourcentages de la recherche académique publiée sont en fait
Mattias, bienvenue dans l'émission.
conduit à des conclusions erronées.
 
C'est intéressant parce que John est mon collègue ici à Stanford et il est bien sûr célèbre pour de nombreuses choses, mais le lancement de la crise de la réplication est peut-être la chose la plus importante qu'il ait jamais faite.
0:11
Ce qu'elle a fait à bien des égards, c'est qu'elle a brisé l'illusion qu'il y avait une
 
Une grande partie du travail universitaire, une grande partie du travail scientifique visait réellement à découvrir la vérité.
Il a été difficile de nous réunir, mais je suis ravie que nous y soyons finalement parvenus.
En fait, ce qu'il semble surtout être, c'est un moyen de grimper dans la hiérarchie de la politique universitaire parce qu'il faut publier ou périr
 
0:16
 
Je suis heureux d'être ici et je vous remercie de m'avoir invité.
 
0:19
 
Mattias est donc surtout connu pour un livre qu'il a écrit pendant la pandémie et qui s'intitule The Psychology of Totalitarianism (La psychologie du totalitarisme).
 
0:28
 
Nous allons surtout parler des thèmes qu'il a abordés dans ce livre, mais tout le monde devrait savoir que Mattias est professeur à l'université de Gand, en Belgique.
 
0:40
 
et en psychologie en psychologie clinique psychothérapeute praticien mais aussi Mattias vous avez une formation en statistiques oui oui j'ai aussi un master en statistiques et disons que les huit premières années de ma formation académique de mon travail de chercheur j'ai travaillé la plupart du temps en tant que statisticien faisant des recherches sur
 
1:09
 
Les problèmes de la recherche universitaire En fait, lorsque j'ai fait mon doctorat, j'ai commencé en 2003, je crois, et deux ans plus tard, la crise de la réplication a commencé, une crise qui a montré que, comme le décrit John Ionitis dans son merveilleux article, la plupart des résultats de recherche publiés sont erronés.
 
1:33
 
Une crise qui a montré que d'énormes pourcentages de la recherche académique publiée sont en fait
 
1:42
 
conduit à des conclusions erronées.
 
1:45
 
C'est intéressant parce que John est mon collègue ici à Stanford et il est bien sûr célèbre pour de nombreuses choses, mais le lancement de la crise de la réplication est peut-être la chose la plus importante qu'il ait jamais faite.
 
2:01
 
Ce qu'elle a fait à bien des égards, c'est qu'elle a brisé l'illusion qu'il y avait une
 
2:08
 
Une grande partie du travail universitaire, une grande partie du travail scientifique visait réellement à découvrir la vérité.
 
2:14
 
En fait, ce qu'il semble surtout être, c'est un moyen de grimper dans la hiérarchie de la politique universitaire, parce qu'il faut publier ou périr.
 
2:23
 
Ainsi, de nombreux travaux publiés en psychologie, en économie empirique et dans toute une série de domaines se sont avérés impossibles à reproduire.
 
2:34
 
jusqu'à 85% dans le monde médical en médecine aussi un des articles de John et c'est extrêmement intéressant je pense parce que mais vous voyez que comme le discours scientifique au départ disons au début du 17ème siècle
 
2:51
 
Je crois que c'était un bel exemple de discours de vérité.
 
2:55
 
C'est un nouveau discours qui a émergé et qui a offert une alternative au discours religieux très dogmatique du moment en Europe.
 
3:11
 
mais lentement, à mesure que le discours scientifique est devenu le discours dominant dans la société, il a perdu ses qualités de vérité et de discours de vérité et, à la fin, il est devenu un discours manipulateur à bien des égards, je pense, et c'est un problème auquel nous sommes confrontés aujourd'hui, et c'est quelque chose de très typique.
 
3:37
 
Pour chaque discours qui, au départ, était un discours sincère d'une minorité et qui est devenu le discours dominant, en devenant dominant, en devenant dominant, un discours perd ses qualités de véracité.
 
3:54
 
Il cesse d'être une sorte de discours de vérité.
 
3:57
 
D'un point de vue psychologique, je pense qu'il s'agit d'un phénomène très intéressant.
 
4:02
 
Je veux dire que l'idée est que la science, lorsqu'il s'agit d'un phénomène extérieur, la critique, la recherche de la vérité, même si elle est inconfortable pour les personnes au pouvoir, est une chose très puissante.
 
4:16
 
En fait, je crois que dans votre livre, vous avez dit qu'il s'agissait d'un élargissement de l'âme.
 
4:20
 
Psychose de formation de masse avec Mattias Desmet
 
4:45
 
Et la façon dont vous avez écrit à ce sujet, vous écrivez qu'il s'agit d'un outil utilisé par les puissants pour contrôler, essentiellement, a créé une situation dans laquelle les gens sont déconnectés de cela.
 
5:09
 
Ils se passionnent pour cette idéologie.
 
5:13
 
Suivez la science, faites-lui confiance comme s'il s'agissait d'un système religieux plutôt que d'un humble ensemble d'outils essayant de dire : puis-je faire la différence entre le vrai et le faux ?
 
5:27
 
Bonjour à tous, un petit mot de notre premier et passionnant nouveau sponsor, Alchemy Elements.
 
5:33
 
Nous avons cherché les meilleurs sponsors qui correspondent à notre mission, à nos valeurs et à ce que nous défendons, et nous sommes tombés sur Alchemy Elements, un supplément synergique à base de plantes que je suis très heureux de vous présenter.
 
5:47
 
Il s'agit d'un mélange de plusieurs substances adaptogènes
 
5:52
 
Pour ceux qui ne le savent pas, les adaptogènes, dont vous avez peut-être entendu parler dans le podcast d'Andrew Huberman, sont des plantes médicinales qui aident le corps à s'adapter au stress, essentiellement.
 
6:03
 
On y trouve donc un certain nombre d'adaptogènes, notamment des champignons cordyceps, reishi, astralagus, shiljak, polygala, crinière de lion, ainsi que d'autres composés.
 
6:15
 
Il suffit d'en prendre une cuillère à soupe et de l'ajouter à son café du matin, à son smoothie ou à sa boisson protéinée et le tour est joué. Je le fais depuis une semaine environ et, comme il le suggère, certains des effets à court terme sont une meilleure concentration et plus d'énergie. J'ai déjà ressenti certains de ces effets. J'ai hâte de le prendre à plus long terme et de vous faire part de mes commentaires lorsque nous ferons d'autres annonces de ce type.
 
6:39
 
Nous avons été très prudents et sélectifs dans le choix des produits que nous parrainons sur notre programme et c'est quelque chose que je peux totalement soutenir et tant que vous continuerez à entendre des publicités sur ce produit particulier, Alchemy Elements, vous pouvez être assuré que c'est quelque chose que je soutiens et dont je peux personnellement me porter garant et recommander aux individus d'essayer.
 
6:59
 
pour L'illusion du consensus avec Mattias Desmet
 
7:19
 
Sous-titres réalisés par la communauté Amara.org
 
7:43
 
Mattias Desmet, Rav Arora
 
8:13
 
Lorsqu'il s'agit du discours d'une minorité, il ne peut être utilisé de manière instrumentale.
 
8:20
 
Mais lorsqu'un discours devient plus dominant, il est généralement utilisé pour réussir, pour vendre ses produits, pour construire sa carrière, etc.
 
8:34
 
Ainsi, lorsqu'un discours devient dominant,
 
8:37
 
C'est un excellent instrument pour réussir dans la société, pour devenir riche, pour devenir célèbre, pour réussir, etc.
 
8:49
 
Et c'est ainsi que ce discours est perverti.
 
8:51
 
Et c'est aussi ce qui s'est passé avec


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